tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1241889800645271761.post3943273154820575197..comments2024-03-06T10:53:14.782+11:00Comments on Social Issues & Torah (TFH): Handouts, the Poor and the Welfare State, Wrong and RightRabbi Zalman Kastel AMhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15689513680760912342noreply@blogger.comBlogger23125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1241889800645271761.post-28356291621581563572011-08-31T20:15:33.486+10:002011-08-31T20:15:33.486+10:00Brian, I don't know of a Torah based solution....Brian, I don't know of a Torah based solution. There is an assumption of a on-going problem to be aleviated. There is an emphasis in our sources toward helping people with loans and work opportunities. <br />Prof. D, many thanks for your contriubtion.Rabbi Zalman Kastel AMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15689513680760912342noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1241889800645271761.post-44720219691673494152011-08-31T20:12:44.478+10:002011-08-31T20:12:44.478+10:00Well said, Zalman. I particularly warm to the ide...Well said, Zalman. I particularly warm to the idea of encouraging not just jobs but also careers and enterprise (which of course may include both pro bono organisations and profit-taking orgs. These will provide jobs and, hopefully, careers to others, including some who may advance to their own enterprises. <br /><br />I'm interested in the concept of micro-business in developing countries, and organisations such as Opportunity International which provide, at ethical rates of interest, small manageable loans to people (in practice, mainly to women, I believe) with which they start a company, pay back the loan and then may borrow more to expand. They also provide training and mentoring, I think. The World Bank argues that money given to women in developing countries means that anything beyond that necessary to cover bare survival of the family, especially the children, will usually be spent on health and education. Thus, it is argued, for multinationals operating in developing countries, such assistance will benefit the organisations which support women, as it is often returned in the form of a better educated and skilled workforce.<br /> <br />Of course, there will always be those who lack the physical or mental capacity to support themselves; and I'm happy to contribute through my taxes to the cost of decent systems and services to support them and their carers in an ethical fashion.Prof D via emailnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1241889800645271761.post-64394870922830862062011-08-29T21:30:38.173+10:002011-08-29T21:30:38.173+10:00Dear Zalman
Thanks so much for this wonderful art...Dear Zalman<br /><br />Thanks so much for this wonderful article.<br /><br />As an Australian in India half of every year, I am often struck by the problem of how to help.<br />There are some who argue that trade at the bottom of the pyramid is a solution - but the sipporters for this position seem to use exagerated trade figures and ignore the many poor have a higher spending on alcohol and tobacco much as poor in the west do. Or that it develop new 'needs' to people ill able to afford the expense, or bear the risk if it goes wrong.<br />As I am a private citizen unattached to an organization, it seems to me government, private sector and civil society need to work together. <br />Multinational corporations often poorly understand peoples real needs making it hard for them to asses how their core values impact poverty or the local environment. But then oftenb people dontknow themselves.<br /><br />Do you see a Torah solution to poverty? I admit toi tryingto collect as many opinions on this topic from different viewpoints.<br /><br />Thankyou forcaring, <br />Brian SullivanBrian Sullivannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1241889800645271761.post-53837861479544286212011-08-29T19:06:59.485+10:002011-08-29T19:06:59.485+10:00FB #11 There is a hadith M, that says that when on...FB #11 There is a hadith M, that says that when one gives charity your pocket will never go empty.S from FBnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1241889800645271761.post-25102800921817425212011-08-29T19:05:28.293+10:002011-08-29T19:05:28.293+10:00FB #10
The funny thing is (or cool) when my husban...FB #10<br />The funny thing is (or cool) when my husband and I had a lot of money, we did as I suggest above. When we were struggling, help came from all over, as if out of nowhere. We think it's because we helped others when we could.M from FBnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1241889800645271761.post-91856386730331366892011-08-29T19:03:07.729+10:002011-08-29T19:03:07.729+10:00FB#9
There's room for abuse in any agency. it&...FB#9<br />There's room for abuse in any agency. it's sad though when an agency that's supposed to help people actually oppresses them. I have to say, though, that Seattle has some great services for people who have hit hard times.M from FBnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1241889800645271761.post-50953254412623552902011-08-29T19:01:56.633+10:002011-08-29T19:01:56.633+10:00FB #8.
There are stupid poverty traps in the UK al...FB #8.<br />There are stupid poverty traps in the UK also that literally keep homeless people homeless.Y from FBnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1241889800645271761.post-7765569672009096632011-08-29T18:59:10.478+10:002011-08-29T18:59:10.478+10:00FB comment #7
The welfare system in the us is not ...FB comment #7<br />The welfare system in the us is not ment to help the users get off it and on to their own feet. its a system of traps and setbacks, take for instance, w-2, which is a system of handing out money, but the "work" tht has to be done is to fill... out a 40 hr a week job search and turn it into a case worker. you can sit infront of a computer in 20 minutes and fll out the 40 hr work search. If the search is not completed, the "money" in virtual transit, is then taken away from the recipient similar to "docking" ones pay. Im sure there are plenty of good and handworking people out there who are having tough times, i know ive had my fill!!! but welfair reform is a good idea, im just not sure how well received it will be. somethings just dont make sense anymore!E from FBnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1241889800645271761.post-65164630710782517602011-08-29T18:57:25.624+10:002011-08-29T18:57:25.624+10:00S, your point about support falling away when it c...S, your point about support falling away when it comes to minorities really resonated for me. I find some religious Jews enamoured of the tea party, in spite of the fact that there are huge issues of poverty and welfare support in NY frum communities. <br /><br />I fear that for some people it might be about the association of the tea party and cuts to welfare with blacks and hispanics. I hope I am wrong.Rabbi Zalman Kastel AMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15689513680760912342noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1241889800645271761.post-40700551771963659042011-08-29T18:55:30.669+10:002011-08-29T18:55:30.669+10:00FB Comment #6.
I'm not directing this at anybo...FB Comment #6.<br />I'm not directing this at anybody in any way--this is just food for thought--but I think it's thought provoking that surveys show that large swathes of the American population profess to be for reasonable government financial support for honest, hardworking people who are temporarily down on their luck, but then say that spending needs to be cut dramatically for minorities.<br /><br />There is a sinister way that these arguments get perverted into parodies of the ideals they're invoking (whether willfully through the machinations of special interest groups or unintentionally through deep-seated stereotypes). I think it's very complex and, sadly, our political systems no longer seem able to deal with complexity (as the recent budget debate in WAshington shows).S from FBnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1241889800645271761.post-52153455090812754102011-08-29T18:53:02.470+10:002011-08-29T18:53:02.470+10:00Thanks H for your email and kind words. In the ort...Thanks H for your email and kind words. In the orthodox Jewish tradition we look to the prophets for more general inspiration but not for guidance on issues of law. This topic had elements of moral discussion and law discussion which is why I was reluctant to refer to the prophets.Thanks for pointing this out.Rabbi Zalman Kastel AMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15689513680760912342noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1241889800645271761.post-23792760776860840532011-08-29T18:51:30.149+10:002011-08-29T18:51:30.149+10:00Dear Zalman, thank you for your thoughts. I always...Dear Zalman, thank you for your thoughts. I always enjoy your Torah-based reflections. Your topic this week is an important one. I am curious as to why you don't rely heavily upon the prophets which we from a Christian point of view always lean on when reflecting on social justice. Thanks again.<br />Peace, HHC - a Christian colleaguenoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1241889800645271761.post-55646784470446293772011-08-29T18:47:26.853+10:002011-08-29T18:47:26.853+10:00Elizabeth, M, S, Y, H & A. Thanks for your ins...Elizabeth, M, S, Y, H & A. Thanks for your insigtful comments. I am not sure what should be done and what the causes are. I recognise there are differences between situaitons. Elizabeth, I have great respect for what Noel is doing and appreciate your sharing your experience and Y's in which Welfare was very helpful. <br /><br />I am suggesting the possibility that Welfare in some cases is harming the people it intends to help. It might still be the lesser of two evils, and that reducing or eliminating welfare at this stage could be far worse for the reasons you state.<br /><br />H, I am exploring the possibility that you summarized, and see some evidence for it, but I am far from certain. A, I think what your suggesting might be the ultimate solution in looking deeply at the whole picture and all the factors that are keeping people from self sufficiency. I was told by someone I respect that in Central Australia, there was a school that was teaching in Aboriginal languages for part of the day and working well, then it was shut down. A holistic review of the situation is needed. Followed by action.Rabbi Zalman Kastel AMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15689513680760912342noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1241889800645271761.post-21243226611429436442011-08-29T18:40:32.422+10:002011-08-29T18:40:32.422+10:00FB Comment 5, by A.
I don't think they should...FB Comment 5, by A. <br />I don't think they should've been colonized in the first place. They're in the place they are now because the presidents kept making treaties and then taking them back. And then we call that "indian giving", when it was done TO indians by the US government. <br /><br />But even though handouts are bad, it's still the right thing to do, even though the thing wasn't done in the right way. Everything was taken from them, and they get a pittance back. They would be better off with jobs (not forced government jobs, but their own jobs, which they should be given resources for) or maybe it would be nice if they had some fertile land, instead of the crap land they have now.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1241889800645271761.post-15412300724315015922011-08-29T18:39:29.138+10:002011-08-29T18:39:29.138+10:00FB comment 4 by H,
S, I think Reb's hypothesi...FB comment 4 by H, <br />S, I think Reb's hypothesis and he can correct me if I am wrong, is that what you have written is the direct result and consequence of a welfare state. Witness what has happened to the dignity of Native American peoples in Alaska and the "Lower" states. Indigenous peoples everywhere do not fare well once colonialized and conquered and then thrown a bone by the majority and the oppressors.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1241889800645271761.post-61326977837383445722011-08-29T18:37:15.597+10:002011-08-29T18:37:15.597+10:00FB Comment 3 by Y.
In the UK welfair is abused &a...FB Comment 3 by Y. <br />In the UK welfair is abused & has become a lifestyle for alot of the white indigenous families as well as some minorities but largly the white comunities.<br /><br />I've claimed welfaire on occasion but as I've worked my way from homelessness & on two ocasions drug addiction I feel that its for use not abuse.<br /><br />Then again our leaders here dont exacly lead by example when it comes to expences & bribes.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1241889800645271761.post-27677277328168245692011-08-29T18:34:05.830+10:002011-08-29T18:34:05.830+10:00FB Comment 2 by S.
I can't speak to the relig...FB Comment 2 by S. <br />I can't speak to the religious arguments in that article, but even if one accepts them on their face I wonder if one can responsibly dismantle the welfare state in a day where society is so atomized (i.e., people don't even know, much less care about their neighbors) and the economy becomes increasingly knowledge-based. <br /><br />For all our technological wonders, it's getting harder and harder to keep your head above water, at least in America (and, from what I read, Israel, as well). In the past, a person who lacked the mental or emotional capacity to hold a down a decent job could survive because the pay of manual labor-based jobs was more in line with cost of living. Now, if you just can't hack it, you can end up homeless, dead in a ditch--perhaps, God forbid, with a family--and there's a good chance no one will notice. Also, I think it's really easy to exaggerate/misdiagnose the problem of welfare dependency/abuse; there are a lot of factors (not all of which are their fault).<br /><br />So, while I agree with the virtues of personal responsibility, I worry that some such calls are in practice more likely to hurt those who need and deserve help from the more fortunate. Also, I wonder if the first response shouldn't be resentment--however understandable if you're working hard but not getting ahead--but rather "There but for the grace of God go I." <br /><br />Instead of dismantling their few remaining protections in the economic jungle, a more practical and IMO moral goal might be to tackle the bigger problems facing us all: declining real wages, the rising cost of living, endless corporate welfare and immoral tax breaks for the wealthy.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1241889800645271761.post-12096304102464708692011-08-29T18:26:34.902+10:002011-08-29T18:26:34.902+10:00FB Comment 1 by M.
Amazing article. Thanks. I am ...FB Comment 1 by M. <br />Amazing article. Thanks. I am fundamentally against welfare BUT, we have taught our society to function as "haves and have-nots" and so I think we have to restructure culturally before we get rid of welfare. <br /><br />If people naturally helped each other - directly - we might not need welfare. For instance, if you have a friend who can't afford health insurance but is working 2 part time jobs to pay the rent, etc, why not give him/her the extra to pay for monthly insurance? Then we say, they need to earn that themselves. <br /><br />Perhaps our economic challenges are encouraging us to look at the restructuring I'm suggesting. We are seeing that hard working people are being caught up in the whirlpool of the economic storm.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1241889800645271761.post-4677549320591729302011-08-29T00:23:13.792+10:002011-08-29T00:23:13.792+10:00Zalman, I think there's some confusion here. S...Zalman, I think there's some confusion here. State welfare per se and welfare dependency among Aboriginal people. The main problem for Aboriginal communities, as I see it (besides the historical destruction of their culture and livelihood), is their isolation and lack of job opportunities. Therefore, the push to remedy that is admirable and long overdue. It's what Noel Pearson and others have been advocating. There are, as far as I am aware, Aboriginal communities that were doing very well, before the intervention. <br /><br />The usefulness of a Welfare state is another issue. As someone who had reason to take advantage of both the welfare state and the Jewish community largesse here in Australia, let me just say that it was the Welfare state and not my own community that rescued me in the late '90s, when I was down and out, without a job and without good health. So, we need the safety net provided by the State and that's a totally different issue from job creation and/or availability in specific communities. We all need jobs and some people need welfare at some point in their lives. I guess what I am trying to say is that one should not be at the expense of the other and to me your blog seems to suggest otherwise. (If I misread it, I apologise)Elizabeth Bannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1241889800645271761.post-77537028802289120902011-08-26T15:51:37.148+10:002011-08-26T15:51:37.148+10:00Marc/Abu. Thanks for sharing. The ethical element ...Marc/Abu. Thanks for sharing. The ethical element is important. At the same time, I think our willingness to work hard is also a gift from our parents and circumstances. Others are dealing with a different set of circumstances which makes it harder for them to embrace the moral stance you and others have taken.Rabbi Zalman Kastel AMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15689513680760912342noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1241889800645271761.post-56024725298563649762011-08-26T13:39:30.303+10:002011-08-26T13:39:30.303+10:00I am in agreement. I have worked two jobs for 7 y...I am in agreement. I have worked two jobs for 7 years plus and am now going back to school for 2 classes this semester, maybe three next semester. I have a REAL hard time with thise who refuse to work for a living or those who refuse to work hard for it. Sure, I could quit my jobs, work at a 7-11 and go on state aid. I'd probably end with more money in my pocket at the end of month. I also think it was would be a massive waste of the intelligence G*d gave me.<br /><br /> So I dont want hand outs and I think my record proves it. I do have a 6 year old son I would love to get ABA therapy for. Our insurance doesnt cover it and at some $3,000 a month, if we paid for it, we cannot afford it. I think if LESS money was paid out to those who dont deserve it there would be MORE resources out there for people and families who honestly need it.Marc Springer/Abu Sinannoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1241889800645271761.post-41111987741526066302011-08-26T00:29:48.661+10:002011-08-26T00:29:48.661+10:00Thanks Safiyyah. Interesting story about the cup. ...Thanks Safiyyah. Interesting story about the cup. I hope Native people will manage to turn the tide and outsiders will be useful in their efforts to support them rather than making it worse.Rabbi Zalman Kastel AMhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15689513680760912342noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-1241889800645271761.post-76899136127826268242011-08-26T00:06:39.700+10:002011-08-26T00:06:39.700+10:00Amazing insight dear Reb. Islamically, it is very...Amazing insight dear Reb. Islamically, it is very similar to all you have mentioned (oy, if I had time to do a parallel post!). There is even a hadith that a poor man was begging/asking during the Prophet Muhammmad (saw) time. The Prophet (saw) asked the man what he owned. The man responded that he had nothing but a cup. The Prophet Muhammmad (saw) told the man to sell his cup! Indeed, cultural/institutional dependency on charity/handouts leads to a breakdown in dignity as you have described. Witness what has happened to the Native peoples of Alaska. Alaska is such a rich state. Surely, the government could institute job training programs in the energy industry for the people. But, no. Sadly, the "other" is brought in to do the jobs. In America, it happens among the Native peoples on "reservations." High degrees of poverty, unemployment, substance abuse, domestic violence, incest, and other crimes against humanity.Safiyyahhttp://www.shaalom2salaam.comnoreply@blogger.com